First, Kathy's post can be read at this link. This is the comment I made there in response to what she wrote:
1) The Democratic Party does not want "far left socialism-communism" or to "change our constitution to their "agenda"".
2) That Joe Biden is our candidate oughta be ample proof that it's not true that "The far left and militant-terrorist groups such as antifa have taken over the Democratic Party."
3) This: "The far left has already silenced our free speech" is just not true for several reasons, the first of which is that our first amendment right to free speech doesn't give us the right to say whatever we want to on private platforms in violation of their terms of service.
4) I'm not even sure what you mean by the far left "no longer taught to love our country, flag and our history" as Democrats are every bit as patriotic as Republicans and just as interested in having us understand our history.
5) Churches aren't closed anywhere. Churches are not the buildings or the meetings but the Christians themselves. Even in states -both Republican and Democratic- where there are regulations about masks and gathering size, worship services continue. Zoom and FB Live are booming! Drive-in, open-air services were a thing some places in prettier weather. And outreach to the community in these difficult times continues. Food pantries are being stocked, aid to the sick and homeless and jobless continues. Donations for Christmas gifts for those less fortunate may well have increased. Churches are thriving in these days even as they look forward to the time when they can gather in more traditional ways.
6) The number of people across this country who want to repeal the 2nd amendment number [is] in the single digits. The Democratic party has never advanced this as a part of their platform or legislative agenda.
In conclusion I'd just like to say how much reactions like this remind me of my days campaigning for Obama during his first run when people screamed and cried in my face, tears running down their cheeks, honestly frightened, swearing we wouldn't even have a country if he were elected. They were wrong. And I'd like to encourage you that even if Biden does win, even if he's allowed to take office in a traditional and peaceful change of administration, Biden will be a president for everybody. He's encouraging us to leave aside the hate and fear and come together as the great nation we are. Know that I'm praying for you no matter which way this election goes. “All shall be well, and all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well.”
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My decision to address this here instead of in her blog comments was made due to her response which began, "I have no response to this comment because your points show that you only listen to main stream media you are Not hearing what is really going on in this country..." I mean she did respond 😉 but in such a patronizing way that I don't feel welcome at this point to continue the conversation there. Blogging isn't like Facebook where interactions happen in real time. I just want some things on the record here.
I numbered the points above and will letter the ones below so you can respond more easily if you'd like.
A) There's no evidence that any of this fear-mongering is based in fact. None. I'd welcome actual evidence of it, but it's just not there. The Democratic Party is not The Enemy, is not trying to repeal the 2nd Amendment, has not been taken over by radical leftists, and isn't going to cancel Christmas or take away your constitutional right to free speech. We love our country just as much as you do. Sheesh. The ignorance in these claims is mind-boggling. There's never even any attempt to provide evidence to support them except that Trump, whose lies are legion, has said so or that there's some soundbite quote lifted out of context that can be twisted into seeming to support it.
B) To think that we aren't far enough left isn't proof of some kind of nefarious plot. It's a political leaning. When Republicans say they don't think we're far enough right I don't accuse them of being Fascist.
C) Biden is not a leftist or a puppet of leftists and that Trump and his surrogates say it doesn't make it so. Biden has managed to build a coalition of support from a wide variety of political leanings from Bernie Sanders supporters to many Republicans (surely you've heard of the Lincoln Project).
D) That anyone would think Biden has worked this hard to step aside for Harris is ludicrous, and if you believe it then this is me laughing. If we're gonna start counting times politicians have misspoken then I'm not done with Trump yet. It'll be a while before I make my way that far down the political ladder to get to state-level campaign staffers.
E) Kamala Harris has not "already spoken publicly during this election how they will be collecting our guns". That's just not true. She favors reasonable gun safety laws, and you thinking they're not reasonable doesn't turn them into "collecting our guns".
F) I won't address the abortion issue at all, except to say if you can find any evidence that Harris supports abortion at 9 months (full term at 40 weeks) I'd like to see it.
G) I follow a wide range of news sources. I'd be happy to share them. I do my best to stay well-informed. That people make the assumption that because I disagree with them I'm the one in a media bubble is hilarious, especially when they tend to be sharing links to Drudge, Breitbart, Infowars and The Blaze. QAnon is also not a news source. That we don't agree doesn't make me wrong.
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I'm used to talking politics on Facebook, not in blog comments. On Facebook the discussion tends to be private (friends-only), free-spirited and casual, and a short form, with many a meme and video and gif. This is different. This is public. Comments must be approved. Writings tend to be more organized and better thought out and longer. I'm not really sure how I feel about it. That said, I'm open to this discussion if anyone wants to have it.
Posts
I think it depends on which side of the aisle you sit I've heard people say it will be the end of the world if Trump is reelected. I don't think Biden would willingly step a side but I also don't think he would have won the nomination without the pandemic. I think there are legitimate reasons to be concerned that Biden will give in to pressures from the more radical elements of the Democratic party. What this would mean for our country is anybody's guess. The Democrats fueled this throughout the primaries with each candidate jumping on board with any far left idea they thought would get them a vote.
ReplyDeleteE. Too many people have said too things I do know that Beto O'Rourke During one of the early debates said he would be willing to confiscate guns.
I disagree about it mattering which side of the aisle you're on, as so many Republicans are strongly opposed to Trump's re-election. The left doesn't have enough seats to get anything passed that doesn't appeal to a broad coalition. And I'm not sure anything we've got in office (maybe countable on one hand, maybe) qualifies as "radical left" ;) But you know I'm over here on the left-wing fringe.
DeleteBeto O'Rourke said he'd require military-type assault weapons (and yes, I know terminology is complicated) be part of a ban and buy-back program. He didn't get the nomination, is not on the ticket, and hasn't held public office in almost 2 years. As a private citizen I hear his concerns, but he has no political traction and certainly not nationally.
That was my whole point if your already on the left you don't see the elected Democrats as far left,from where I sit I don't see a whole lot of moderate in the elected Dems. The same goes for the right, I don't know how you stand but you can't hardly have the news on without someone saying how far right the Republican party has moved. Everyone bemoans the fact that there is no middle ground anymore. Just look at the nonsense that went on with the add packages for the covid everyone knows there are people that need help, but will only move enough in negotiating to be unacceptable to the other side.
DeleteAs for having to build a coalition this is why questions that Biden refused to answer as to SCOTUS packing and other breaks from the norms of procedures such as killing the filibuster are so important. Politicians routinely ignore questions but Biden's response was at the least condescending.
You said what people thought of trump's reelection depended on which side of the aisle you're on, and I disagree. There's strong anti-trump Republican support for Biden. It's not a Republican/Democrat Right/Left issue. It's a Trump WTH?! issue.
DeleteI hear you about what "left" means, but there's such a thing as far left, an actual identifiable thing, and here I am waving at you from there. Anyone who calls Biden leftist doesn't understand the left wing of the party. I'd expect Biden to be responsive to the wide range within the party. Just the far left is a small group who can't get anything far left passed.
On the other hand, the Republican Party has demonstrably moved further and further right as shown by the rise of the Tea Party and the evangelical support since Roe v Wade and Republicans making anti-abortion part of their platform back in the good old days when they bothered having a platform ;) It's turned more into a trump support group than a party, though, so how far to the right they are isn't even the question any more but where's Trump and how close can they get to that.
That Biden wouldn't answer the court-packing question seems the better thing since wouldn't he need to research that issue and do research on the history of the SCOTUS and take advice from the appropriate experts? I wouldn't want him just spouting off whatever random idea he favored at the moment.
We will have to agree to disagree about Biden and answering questions you say thoughtful and i say political.
DeleteFrom the right I would say that the Republicans have not moved farther to the left we just refuse to roll over and give in to the Democrats.
I doubt he's decided to expand the SCOTUS.
Delete"the Republicans have not moved farther to the left" roflol!!! Well, on _that_ we can certainly agree ;)
To Bob's point on SCOTUS (and you addressed it too) -- I would want him to establish the type of commission he discussed to evaluated the options. It isn't just adding justices; it's term limits and who knows what else, as well. We have someone who acts in a knee jerk way now. A thoughtful deliberation is what matters.
DeleteYes, exactly, that Biden _hasn't_ gone off on his own on this subject speaks well of his willingness to take advice.
DeleteSorry left should have been right , typing too early in the morning.
DeleteWe're back to solid disagreement then. The Tea Party is proof of a rightward move if nothing else.
Delete...I wish that Kathy would explain antifa for me, is a left-wing Proud Boys, or Ku Klux Klan or Aryan Nations or White Boy Society or Racist Skinheads or Westboro Baptist Church?
ReplyDeleteThey don't understand what antifa is, that's my guess, being more used to club-type membership-based organizations.
DeleteI was visiting the T gang and your link takes me to my blog post just so you know-I did reply (on my page) with a link on her intentions to "collect" our guns
ReplyDeleteI am so sorry about that. I've no idea how that happened. I added my own link but am unsure how to delete the incorrect link.
DeleteShe has no intention to "collect" our guns lol None. None at all. Reasonable gun regulation, that's what Democrats support, and surely there can be discussion around what that might mean.
How anyone, especially women, can support this misogynistic, amoral, liar, and wannabe dictator is beyond me. They scream the Democrats are going to change the Constitution, but willingly turn a blind eye to the fact that Trump has violated the Emoluments Clause and the Hatch Act. He's now screaming that he will announce [his] win at tonight's election even though all states have regulations in place to count votes days after an election. The president doesn't have the authority to call an election winner. And what has this idiot done for his first term in office? Nothing. He boasted gutting the ACA as the first thing he would do. That there would be a health care plan. He's had nearly 4 years and all he's done is promised it soon. Because he threw up the Pandemic Response handbook and refused to listen to his experts in the field of infectious disease control, there are now more than 230,000 deaths on his hands. If the economy is so great, why are so many people still filing for unemployment benefits and lines to food pantries longer than anyone has seen since the Great Depression? Besides golfing, what did he do with his time? He packed the courts. Filled 3 seats in the SJC with a lying rapist and an unqualified mouth-piece who stood on the shoulders of women who went before her and now will slam the door in the faces of those coming behind. As to the pandemic and on tape admitting he was told at the very beginning how serious this was. His comment he didn't want to cause a panic. He didn't give a 💩 about the American people. He didn't want to panic the STOCK MARKET. He was worried about how much money he would lose. All he's done is divide this nation with his hate-filled speech. Inciting his rabid base to storm the the MI statehouse because the female governor was trying to keep her state safe. His base went so far as to plot to assassinate her. Thank God for the FBI for thwarting their plans. These radical right wingers scream about Biden's son getting a job because his father was VP. Any yet they fail to see that Trump has placed daughter Ivanka and her husband in positions at the WH. As well as his criminal buddies, Barr and Guiliani's daughter and son. How do you spell Nepotism? Trump. Rather than be concerned with her emails or his laptop, they should be worried who he owes so much money to, why he had a secret bank account in China, and how in 10 years he could only pay $750 in taxes. He claims Biden is too old though Trump is only 3 years younger. Trump shows definite signs of having a stroke (he couldn't negotiate a shallow ramp at the military academy graduation ceremony, couldn't drink water with one hand) and dementia. As the sign in my town surrounded by Trump signs that I shared the picture of with you says: You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out.
ReplyDeleteYes, it amazes me that constitutional issues like the emoluments clause mean nothing to them. But I'm unsure that they understand the constitution since any time FB or Twitter flag or remove anything they whine about having their right to free speech violated. They certainly from trump on down (from trump on up? ;) ) don't understand how voting works and how votes are counted and reported.
DeleteHe's gotten those judges they wanted. That he's done, I'll give him that, and it'll affect life here for 2 or 3 generations. And that golf he said he wouldn't do at all is costing us a fortune. The nepotism is a shocking issue, and I'm disappointed nothing has been done to deal with it. When he was running before, his supporters assured me he'd get in #TheBestPeople. He didn't. It's disappointing that so many people have fallen for his act. It hurts my heart :(
CJ put this so nicely. I don't know if I can outwrite her. I will add that so many people around him were arrested and jailed for breaking the law, that paying nothing in taxes is a bit sketchy in itself, was impeached for Russian connections in the last election, tried to close the post office system which would have affected so many employees and let so many people die from covid. He didn't cause covid, but he has done little else. For someone whose mother had covid and I spent weeks in worry and sadness, it is insulting that he has rally and doesn't require masks. When he came to NH, that had a mask requirement for crowds that size, he ignored our state regulations. Never mind William Barr. I won't go there although I could go on. I'm sure Kathy won't see this, and I do keep my blog apolitical, and am writing to the choir right now, but boy, it does feel good to write this response.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the Trump corruption issue, and the attack on our election integrity is shocking. He's self-absorbed and works for his own benefit. It's pathetic that he won his party's nomination in 2016 with so many other candidates to choose from.
DeleteI'm watching the results on TV and do hope it's an early night, without the threat of lawsuits dragging this through the courts :(
Once more, I can't be more eloquent than either you or CJ. Under C, I agree that Biden has provided a coalition of Republicans who support him. I have hopes for Arizona, because of Cindy McCain's endorsement of Biden, which I feel carries a lot of weight there. There are other Never-Trumpers, too. That's in addition to those involved in the Lincoln project. I feel sorry that some people can see the exact same message or words Trump says in news reports, and interpret it in whatever way they feel is to their advantage. I'm glad you posted this because it needed to be said again and again and again.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard right now as I see how broadly the trump hate runs through our country. That he has such rabid, enthusiastic support is dis-heartening. That people can look at him and the current Republican Party and say, "Yes, sign me up!" is a sad state of affairs. When people say, "This is not who we are" my response is, "Take a look. This is who we are". It hurts that the kinds of ignorance I see, the QAnon believers being elected to national office, the easily debunked lies being believed and spread... It's a tragedy, and even if Biden wins I mourn for our nation.
DeleteAnd the fear-mongering over "socialism" makes it clear to me that they've got no idea what "socialism" is :(
DeleteHowever, the "socialism" saying worked. Say something enough times and people will believe it, whether it's true or not. From Florida to Montana, people have bought into the socialism ideal that the Dems will take us there. We are sheep or act like we do when we think of lemmings, the irresistible metaphor for irrational human behavior. These "lemmings" don't bother to search for the truth, preferring to follow the crowd metaphorically over the cliff.
DeleteThey've been crying "socialism" for decades lol but I doubt they'd be willing to give up the tax-payer supported programs they benefit from. We are not a socialist nation and never will be, and Democrats aren't Socialists. Sheesh. Yes, they buy the fear, they buy the lies. Willfully ignorant. It's sad to watch.
DeleteI just hope and pray that this man will not be allowed to continue trampling and damaging the USA. Valerie
ReplyDeleteI woke up this morning to find that trump has declared victory, declared that the "Poles" are closed, and said he'll ask the SCOTUS to intervene to stop counting votes. And people were scared Democrats would be "socialist"?! roflol I think I'll hafta break out the "fascist" word after all.
DeleteJust yesterday they showed in the German news how extreme left and extreme right persons went at each other (can´t remember where exactly in your place) - it was frightening.
ReplyDeleteThose from the right - still talking about extremes - were so "generous" to choose non-leathal weapons. I nearly fell off my chair hearing this.
Slowly we get the same here, politics turns to be a circus.
I grew up with CDU being (not extreme) to the right, SPD very much to the left and guess what, since years they "work" together hence extreme right and extreme left developed. 16 years we had to endure Merkel and we need to get rid of this woman who keeps repeating making wrong decisions but actually there is no one I could vote with 100 or 90% being sure I do the correct thing for pushing our country in a good direction.
Over the years I learned somehow they are all "corrupt" or... well, not that I knew how to do a better job, but.... circus just comes to mind when I follow debates.
Sad. (speaking of Germany here)
Politics should be for the people and media are so powerful overrunning truth so often. A crazy world.
And, really. Never have I seen the "president" of the United States that often on German TV (Obama not often enough...)
It can be a circus here, too. It surprises me that we've moved from FDR to Biden, and the right is still screaming "socialism" *sigh* Whatever the Democrats propose, the right smears it as "socialism". They wouldn't know a Socialist country if it hit them in the face.
DeleteI agree totally. I'm so.very.tired. of people who want to believe lies told from someone with a vested interest. When someone tells lies to make control another, make money from them, or has a financial interest in getting them to believe him, well, it's not smart to consider the source. I read her words, the hate and fear behind them, and thought we're in the dark ages. I do not need to ever return to her blog myself. It's too much like lockstep --following hitler no matter if it makes sense, or is truthful. I rely on facts and reason... what makes for a unified country a healthy country, a country that moves forward with grace and acceptance of others...
ReplyDeleteThe lack of critical thinking skills is depressing, the unwillingness to do the simplest fact check, the refusal to engage except in rare cases, the name-calling (I'm so sick of being called a baby-killing socialist who hates our country)... The Jim Jones comparison is spot on. It's a cult.
DeleteI keep trying, but I can't make people quit calling me names.
I normally don't talk about politics, because most Americans are so polarized that one risks vilification if one writes something that doesn't agree with others' views.
ReplyDeleteI think it's very unfortunate that this is what most Americans have come to.
The Democrat politicians in DC claim to be for civil rights, etc. and the Republican politicians in DC claim to be for the constitution etc., yet politicians from BOTH parties overwhelming vote to renew the Patriot Act (or whatever name they've given it now, if they changed the name to hide the fact that they keep approving it) every X months, which violates the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution. But THAT rarely, if ever, gets talked about in the National News.
While most Americans are busy arguing with each other, being polarized, they fail to notice that actions speak louder than words, in politicians from BOTH parties.
I don't care who you, or anyone else, voted for, for US President. I'm probably in the 0.5% of Americans who view the entire political landscape quite differently than most Americans do.
And just in case my words came off with a "tone" that wasn't intended: my view on Trump and Biden is neutral. I'm not polarized over this election.
The Patriot Act was a moment of panic that somehow just continued for some reason I don't understand. According to Wikipedia the Act is expired but now there's a Freedom Act that curtailed some of the surveillance provisions. I can't keep up, even though I do try.
DeleteI don't mind "tone" ;) I enjoy the discussion. I do disagree with the folks who say both major parties are the same. I'm a long-time Democrat, and although I've voted for Republican candidates in the past this isn't that Republican party. I'm paying attention to the actions. It's why I vote Democrat ;)
Wow. This is a brilliant post -- well reasoned, well stated, and honest. And I admire you so for writing it and for doing it so eloquently. I have little to add to the conversation apart from agreement because CJ and others have said all in my heart. After what we have seen in Michigan, I am amazed that our tallies (still undecided as I write this) are so close. But then, if there was enough hate here to instigate such a plot on our governor, there is enough hate to vote for the one who will urge them on and validate their feelings. I am disheartened this morning -- but they are still counting so I will hold hope until I cannot. Thank you for sharing your voice.
ReplyDeleteI'm glued to FB, Twitter (there's so much on Twitter), and the tv coverage I can get over the air right now (which is NBC news as I write this). That so many people still support this person (he has a history here in Memphis, so my feelings about him aren't new) is disturbing. I'm still shocked he won the Republican nomination for 2016. If they keep calling me a Socialist I'm gonna start using the Fascist word. The man isn't well-suited to public service imo. Let him play golf at his own expense.
DeleteI forgot to mention: yes, churches WERE closed, for a period of time. I can't find the specific Connecticut Executive Order for it, but my blog post at the time confirms it:
ReplyDeletehttps://annescreativecornucopia.blogspot.com/2020/04/no-palm-sunday-public-masses-photograph.html
And not everyone has Internet access, so attending houses of worship via an online stream is not an option for everyone. In Connecticut, when they went to online public schooling, the CT Government had to provide Internet access for children whose families didn't have it (because they couldn't afford it). The CT Govt also provided children with free laptops, to access the Internet, because some families couldn't afford that either.
(Note: I'm leaving this comment on Divers and Sundry and Kathy's blog posts.)
No. Churches were _not_ closed, as you can't close the Body of Christ. Limits were placed on gatherings and on gathering sizes. This, for example is from CT lining out one way in which gatherings for worship can legally/safely take place: "Executive Order 7XX makes modifications to Executive Order No. 7TT to provide that “drive-in” religious, spiritual, and worship gatherings at which all attendees remain in their vehicles may be held with no limitations on capacity if either vehicle windows remain closed or vehicles remain at least six feet apart and participants wear masks or cloth face coverings." https://portal.ct.gov/Coronavirus/Covid-19-Knowledge-Base/Religious-Gatherings
DeleteOnce again, an inability to meet in large gatherings for worship does not mean the church itself is closed. Your photo indicates that the New York annual conference of the United Methodist Church _requested_ their churches to not hold public worship services for 2 weeks during March. Bethel Methodist Church in CT (the link given in your church photo) apparently livestreamed their worship services and continue to do that even though they're now gathering in the sanctuary for worship.
There is a long history of providing worship services on audio and video tape for shut-ins. Internet access isn't a necessity for the church to be an open, functioning part of the world. The church can be flexible in how it provides a presence in the world.
The Church does not close. Limits on gatherings do not close The Church.
So if you want to say church buildings were closed, I'll agree with you.
Deleteand just another addition: I have preachers in my family, and to refer to the church building as the church is a sure invitation to a philosophical and religious and theological discussion of what the word "church" means as opposed to "church building". These are hard times. The Church has been there for the people through it all whether or not worship gatherings were allowed in the building or the building itself was locked up tight.
DeleteWords have meaning. Meaning matters.